all gone, got rid of the car and all the engine stuff....

Ignition coils?

   I want to run LS coils on my 3800, this seems to be more difficult than I had thought. On Pennock's Fiero Forum I had asked the question if it was possible or if it had been done. The responses I received ranged from helpful to chastising. You think I was asking them to help me drown puppies. One of the posts on Pennock's forum gave me this link PCM hacking forums. Very neat module, last post in the thread was on 9/4/2013, so it's kinda dead. This module converts the 12v signal that drives the stock coils to a +5v to drive the LS coils, I don't know if it drives them in pairs or individually.
   So it seems that I'm on my own to research this aspect of the project.This is a major fork in the road due to the fact that I have a complete wiring harness for a 2001 Buick Park Avenue Ultra, but no ECM, I could get an OE ECM and be on my way. A little web search for the OE ECM for my engine results in ECM prices from $110 with a $85 core for a cardone (junk) part to $669 with a $120 core for an ACDelco. Both are remanufactured. I could go to a junkyard, but who knows what quality I'll get. But I want to run the LS coils and not the coil pack. So I have to find a system that will run the coil setup I want. I know the LS coils need +5v to trigger, so the search for a workable setup starts.....
   First stop- 2001 Oldsmobile Aurora 3.5. I printed out the ECM connector pin out pages for this ECM and the 3.8 ECM, they are almost identical. I need to figure out what signal the 3.5 ECM would send to the coils, +12v, +5v or ground. I think it's +5v due to the fact that the circuit is described the same as the LS circuit, but that bit of info that would make me sure is missing, weird how wiring diagram information varies from car to car and year to year, you think GM would be more consistent.
   Next I checked out the Trailblazer with the 4.2 inline 6, it uses totally different ECM connectors, but it uses individual coils, but unfortunately Alldata says that it triggers the coils with a ground signal not +5v. Maybe I could make a small converter module? And I don't know if that ECM is custom programmable.
   Next up 2001 Saturn LW300 with the 3.0 v6 (junk engine). Again this ECM uses grounds to trigger the coils, but the ECM is super small. And again is it programmable?
   Number 4 possibility is the 2005 Buick Rendezvous with the 3.6 v6. The schematics for the coils looks very similar to the LS diagrams, but again with the programming.
   Lastly I think I could use a LS ECM, like a 2004 GTO with the 5.7 LS, the LS ECMs are supposed to be the most easily programmable. I don't know if it can be programmed for a v6 though.
 
   If I could get some of my questions answered on the above problems I might be able to formulate a plan. But I'm not sure which sites to ask, Pennock's Forum seems to be more based in stock swaps and rebuilding. PCM hacking forum is kinds over my head, thoses guys are so deep into the electronics I need a translator.
   So all this leads me back to the MS3xtra. From Diyautotune it will cost around $670. A little steep for my taste, but open programming, and it will run pretty much any engine combination I put in the Fiero.

Super new direction!

Yes I changed the title again, but for a "super" good reason. I have a 3800 s/c engine, technically it's a series 2 L67. It's out of a 2001 Buick Park Avenue Ultra. A local dealer screwed up a oil change and caused a rod knock, so my shop (me actually) installed a used motor. I got the used motor for $125 core charge. My plans are to do this on as tight of a budget as possible, I'm trying to build a daily driver not a show car.

Super charger was removed and put up on a shelf to keep it safe while I worked on other stuff.

Water cooled drive belt tensioner, kidding, unused heater passages and alternator mount visable.

Top view of tensioner and alternator mount.

Tensioner after cutting off un-needed coolant passages.

I removed the plastic coolant elbows, tapped both holes in lower intake manifold and timing cover. Hole in lower intake will have fitting installed for heater flow, hole in timing cover is plugged.

SQUIRREL!!!!

     So I went back to the Squirrel Performance Turbo Calculator and retried their program, I typed in my desired specs, (my specs). (change liters to CID and back to liters if lower data doesn't show) And the best map I saw was the GT2860R-2 or  GT2860RS. I know the world will say there is no way I can get 215hp out an Iron Duke. But that's what the program says at 10psi. And 187hp at 7psi. I'm happy with that.
     My plans include a real ecm not the OEM calculator the Fiero came with, so I'll have full timing control using one or even two knock sensors, the OEM ecm uses none. The OEM timing curve does not vary, it's set and does not change based on load, if it was programed for 20 degrees it will set the timing at 20 degrees. Where I might only need 15 degrees at the same time with a turbo.
     Using the Desktop Dyno 2000 program and entering specs from Amotion Cams, I get a max HP of 144hp at 4500 rpm. Using the old school "turbos ad 45% hp" that gives me 208hp. 144hp will still be fun, but if the stars and planets align 200hp will be even better.

Back to the project.......

     I'm back to thinking about turbo-ing the 2.5. I started redoing/ rechecking my previous research, found out that the 6.25 length con rods i wanted are no longer made, but on the bright side the 6.125 rods will work and are available in singles, so i don't need to buy 8 to get 4. I'm exploring the possibility of aluminum rods, some do come in 6.2 length, but pistons are harder to match to that length.
     Big news though Megasquirt has released the MS3pro

     Looks like and features resemble the sequencer they had promised a while back. Actually it's probably more powerful and feature packed than I need, but if I later change to a V-6 or V-8 I won't need to buy another ECM. Unfortunately it costs $1199 from Diyautotune.com. Ouch. But it's preassembled and already loaded with software. 

     A cheaper alternative is the Megasquirt 3 with ms3x expansion for only $645 plus cables (another $85 or so). And it could still run a V-6 or V-8 with the LSx series coils I want to use. They have even cheaper models, but they won't run the coils I want.

     I'm still researching the connecting rods, ICON 735 pistons should work with the 6.125 rods to give me a compression ratio around 8.18:1. I've found others but this combo is available so this might be the way I go.

     Garrett's website says that a GT2252 turbo will be perfect for my setup. Garret says it's good for 150 - 260hp on a 1.7 to 2.5l engine. I'm not going to go crazy with boost, around 7psi tops, if that only gives me 175, then I'll be sastisfied. I'd like to hit 200hp. Base hp for the Fiero is around 90hp so a good cam and a turbo could get me to 180. If I can find studs and a MLS head gasket I might go higher with boost, maybe 12psi max. I know this engine isn't a Honda H22, so I don't want to blow it up. Since I haven't had any luck with the head studs yet (ARP makes 1/2" studs but my engine is metric) I'm not going to pursue the high boost.

     I am planning on using an intercooler, probably a small one under the driver's side vent panel, and fiberglass snorkel over the roof. i looked into a water to air intercooler and the second radiator & water pump would take up too much space. I want to find or make scoops like theses.

Unfortunately this is the best picture I can find right now.

 I also want to get side scoops to let more air in. 

And a deck lid scoop to let the hot air out.

Although not that gawdy.

Lost another engine...

So the junkyard wouldn't come down on the price on the 3400. It had a cracked starter mounting pad, so who other than a wierdo like me would want it? My boss and I got tired of looking at the motor so we sent it back. I also got very distracted by a motorcycle, so my attention has slipped away from the fiero.

Back to the V6 engine?

I have a slightly used 3400 out of a 2006 Equinox sitting on the floor next to my bay. My boss is trying to get me a deal on the engine, and if it works out I'll have that as my new project.
I still would like to put a turbo on it, if I can figure out what size I need. I also need a computer, I'm thinking MS3 cause I still have the LS series coils I want to use. I have a lot of the wiring off the engine and all brackets except the a/c mount. I will have to swap out the intake I already have because the Equinox intake is way to tall to use. But all I need to put the 3400 in the car is a flywheel, clutch and front motor mount bracket. So the MS3, turbo, injectors and fuel pump will be the large expense.

Peace of mind?

     In my seemingly never ending search for the piece of information that will make me feel that I've made the correct decision I came across this java page Ray Hall Turbo Size Calculator. Not the greatest as far as instructions, but type in only a few bits of data and it will recommend a turbo. In contrast the calculator here at Squirrel Performance Turbo Calculator is very data intensive, to the point of confusion. Even if you could muddle your way trough the data, you still have to sort through the turbo compressor maps. Really?
     I later remembered the Garrett Boost Adviser which comes in web, android and apple versions. I downloaded the android version to my phone and tablet thinking I had found a great new app to play with anytime I had a thought about the set up. But to my disappointment, the app didn't get past the last screen on either my phone or tablet. So I tried the web version. Again, got all the way to the last screen where you enter your zip code so the program can find your local baro pressure...I let it sit there on that screen for 45 minutes with no change, all I could do was open the help or restart the whole app. So I downloaded the Product Catalog and used that instead, and that shows more than one turbo would work for my set up. At least I'm a little closer.  A month later and the Garret app started working, results didn't help much, but at least the app works.

Starting back down the turbo path....

     I still have the used turbo from a Saab (9000 I believe) that is basically a T25 that was on a 2.0. I'm only going to use it for mock up, not planing on actually using it because it needs rebuilt. I rather buy one and use the old one for mock up, that way if I destroy it in the process I won't be out anything.
     In my search for the right size turbo I've visited many sites that have calculators to help recommend a turbo. But they ask so many questions that I don't know the answers to that they were almost useless. All I wanted was a simple answer to my problem.
               When will the turbo start to make boost??
     Too big of a turbo and I might have to rev the motor to 3500 or more to get boost, then what's the point? I want boost down lower, like starting around 2000 to 2500 for more fun on the street. The other concern, although highly unlikely to ever happen, would be using too small of a turbo that would spool quickly but run out of flow before my red line.

     So I found a site that gave the mathematical formulas to do your own calculations and links to compressor maps to use your data. And there I was, a D math student calculating stuff light years above what I barely got in high school. I gave up when my eyes started crossing and the numbers started running together before I could figure out which turbo I needed.
     So I tried the same approach that got me through math, find a shortcut to the known answer and generalize the next set of data.  

     So I did the calculations my way-

               2.0 liter engine with a 6500 red line -- 2.0 * 6500 = 13,000  stock Saab setup
               2.5 liter engine with a 5500 red line -- 2.5 * 5500 = 13,750  my setup
     So using my backward method math a T25 will be perfect for the 2.5. Now I could rev the 2.5 higher, some guys on the net brag about spinning theirs to 6500 with no problems, but I'm going to try and impose a 5500 red line to help make the engine run longer.
     During my searches I found places selling twin turbo headers for 350 chevys with T25 flanges   
               5.7 liter engine with a 6500 red line -- 5.7 * 6500 = 37,050  normal red line
               5.7 liter engine with a 4500 red line -- 5.7 * 4500 = 25,650  just under 2x the 2.0 saab
     If they think that two T25s can feed a 350 on the street and my math says it would take 2 T25s to feed a 5.7, I must be in the neighborhood of close to correct if you set it up mildly. Obviously a 350 could handle much much bigger turbos, I've read articles on 1000hp twin turbo setups, but I'm only looking for 200 tops.

New job is working out great, shop is awsome, money is flowing in faster than it ever has. Not as much as I need to do everything I want but, I should be moving forward.
So I have been thinking of going back to the turbo tech four. Reasons are weak, but here they are..... building the four cylinder will be cheaper overall than the v8. (I'm taking into account the v8 kit, and other parts that the v8 needs that the four cylinder wouldn't).
Second reason is that I really want to build the four cylinder, so many v8 fieros have been done, I want to be different.

Still No Funds.....but,

While doing research, which I've become quite good at, I've been searching for another way to use the LS series coils on my engine. And I came across EFI Connection, they adapt LS ECMs to older model Chevy engines. This would allow me to run the Fuel injection, the multiple coils, and be able to go to a shop that can tune and/or reprogram a LS ECM. The parts needed from them will total around $825, but I won't have to scratch my head as much to get it running. And I won't have to assemble the ECM which I wasn't looking forward to at all.

New Job

Had to switch jobs, income was falling off and prevented me from doing anything related to the project. New job pays by the hour instead of flat rate. This means more consistent paychecks so I can actually have money to spend. So hopefully I'll be able to have things to post here soon.

New Intake Project

So the new plan is to get a used intake like an Edelbrock Torker II, it's a single plane design for use inthe 2500 to 6500 rpm range. Edelbrock's victor series would be even better, they have much straighter intake runners, but they are much taller, and hood clearance might be a problem. 

 Then adapt the first throttle body I bored, modified and polished and bolt it in place of the carburetor.

.

Then drill the intake for fuel injection. Another reason I chose the torker II intake was ease of access to the intake ports, a dual plane intake has runners that come in from two different heights and that complicates the injector install. As you can see in the last picture. Not that it couldn't be done, but the Torker II will just be easier. Going with fuel injection over carburation allows me to use less complicated intake designs. Dual plane intakes are designed to assist in the flow of air and fuel, I'm only worried about the flow of the air.

Name Change

Yes I changed the name of this blog. Due mostly to the fact that I can't decide which direction to go with the project. I now have a 350 four bolt main block in addition to all the other stuff I have been collecting. The 350 as it turns out makes the project cheaper. Pistons are available from Summit Racing for a ton less than the pistons I would need for any of the other projects. I can also run a stock sized rod to save even more. I'm figuring I can get the rotating assembly together for just under $400. This setup will give me 9:1 to 9.2:1 compression, great for street use, and still safe to do a mild turbo setup. (not that I will but I could)

I used this Compression Calculator and the data:

4.03 bore

3.48 stroke

4.2 gasket bore

0.04 gasket thickness

70cc combustion chamber volume

-6cc piston relief

0.025 deck clearance

Of course thinner gaskets are available, as are thicker ones, I just used the most common thickness. I could use a 0.015 and bump the compression to over 9.5:1 or I could use a 0.06" thick gasket and lower the compression to 8.66:1. That's even better for a turbo. But from my years of reading about V8 Fieros, a turbo really isn't needed. I've been told that the current trans will barely be able to live behind the V8, let alone one with a turbo. The Camquest program says with the combo I'm looking at and a N+L79 cam (updated version of the old Corvette L79 cam) I'll have around 355hp. One HP per CID works for me. Yes I could use a bigger cam and push 375hp, but the N+L79 is supposed to have a decent idle, and let's face facts, I'm getting old and want a car that idles as smooth as possible. By the way, the 9.5:1 compression bumps the HP to 365.

Re-thinking the project...........again

I have the block, crankshaft and heads for a 1969 Camaro 307 (yes it's a chevy motor), I also have all of the pieces of a 3400 v6 except the block and heads. And of course I have the complete IronDuke engine that's still in the fiero.
My dillema is this...which engine should I build?
The 307 parts that I need are cheap (used on Ebay) and can be bought one piece at a time if needed. I can probably get the engine assembled for under $700.
The 3400 project will need a new block, heads and pistons. That will cost around $500.
With either engine I will need custom exhaust, custom flywheel and clutch, and fuel/ignition system modifications. But either of those engines will be very reliable, run nearly forever, and be fast.
The Duke motor, while not needing any custom mounts or specialty clutch, will require turbo fabriaction and computer/fuel/ignition mods. And after all that, might blow up in less than a year.
So I'm leaning towards the V-8 again, I want to build all three engines, mostly because I like building engines. I think the research I've done on the Duke would make it a very fun driver. But I've always wanted a V-8.
And if I go with the V-8, there will not be a turbo, just fuel injection and DIS ignition.
Hp estimates with the parts I'm looking at are 300hp to 340hp and 6500rpm redline. That will be fun.....

First Paid For Parts....

I finally bought something for the project. After going as far as I could on the free path, I purchased my first parts. I went to Ross Machine Racing's Ebay site and bought four weld in injector bungs and a 17" length of fuel rail. I now have enough material and parts to finish the intake manifold. The intake runners aren't straight so I'll need to place the injectors in just the right places so the fuel doesn't shoot into the wall of the head, and I'll need them to be at 33 degrees, not the typical 45 degrees that injectors are usually installed at. This is due to the almost flat path the intake runners take from the plenum to the valve, unlike a v6 or v8 where the plenum comes in from above the valve. Now I need to get the injector bung placement exact, drill the holes (notice I avoided the use of "bung hole"?) install the bungs and weld them in, then mock up the fuel rail and see if it will interfere with the plenum. If so, modify, if not continue welding the rest of the parts.

Megasquirt!

So after many wasted lunch breaks searching the net for info about converting waste spark systems to coil on plug (cop) or coil near plug (cnp) I came back to the Megasquirt web site (do not try megasquirt.com that is a porn site). During my research on their pages trying to determine which version of their ECMs would be best for me I found this page comparing Megasquirt ECMs. I think the MSII Sequencer would suit my needs the best, and it's small and it's pre-assembled (no soldering to screw up). It does sequential injection and runs individual coils like the LS coils I have. I might need a cam sensor, and if so all I would need is a used distributor. I would have to remove the pick up and module then fabricate a sensor mount for a GM cam sensor out of a newer car. So this all means I would have a sequentially injected turbocharged tech IV. If I can come up with the money when they finally release it. This Forum site has entries from people beta testing the Sequencer before final release. And I think I would probably wait a couple of months before purchase to give others time to post any info I might need. The Diyautotune site has the best selection I have found so far, and they are in on the beta testing so they should have a good idea of what should work with what.

Ignition problems before I start?

After thinking about my ignition plans for a while I started wondering if the coils were actually up to the task. Not their output abilities but their ability to fire as often as I need. In the original setup the LS series coils fire only once per power cycle, only on the power stroke. In a waste spark setup the coils fire on the power stroke and on the exhaust stroke. So if the maximum RPM that the coils could handle on the original setup is 6600 RPM, then in a waste spark setup they would top out at 3300 RPM. So assuming my assumptions are correct the LS coils will either overheat or output will taper off above 3500. Next idea was to use an ignition coil off of a Dodge 5.8 non hemi engine. The older style coil is designed to fire every pulse of a v-8. So at 6600 RPM that coil will fire 26,400 times were the LS coil will only fire 3300. But the output of the dodge coils is noticeably less, possibly less than the original waste spark coils, but they will run cooler than they would in the v-8 and I can run shorter ignition wires to the plugs for less resistance. So maybe I should just keep the original ignition.

Ignition Upgrade?

I now have in my possession eight GM LS1 coils with brackets and harnesses. My plan is to use an ECM out of a 1994 Cavalier with a 2.2 liter engine, this decision was made because the 94 cavalier was a multi port injection setup and uses a knock sensor. Neither of which the stock Fiero ECM will understand.

Cavalier 2.2 module

So looking at the wiring diagrams for the Fiero and the Cavalier a major difference that I found is in the ignition modules. The Fiero ignition module actually sets the base timing for the coils and a signal from the ECM varies the advance or retard. Whereas the Cavalier module is only there to fire the coils, it has no internal timing program. The Cavalier ECM sends a 12 volt signal to the module when it wants the coils to fire based obviously on many inputs. This is very similar to the way the LS series of coils works, only they are triggered by 5 volts not 12 volts (according to the Megasquirt web site). So my new problem that I have created for myself (in addition to many others) is how can I get a 12 volt signal to safely and reliably trigger a 5 volt coil. Or will the coils trigger off of a 12 volt signal and the megasquirt site is just using a more regulated signal. If I can get this new problem solved (and I do have the time to solve it) I will be able to mount four powerful coils on top of the valve cover. Granted the OE wasted spark system works great, I just think the LS coils have a higher cool factor. Plus I would have to remount the ignition module anyway, since the Fiero ignition module has the crank sensor bolted to the back of it then the assembly is bolted to the block down under the intake manifold (hard to change the wires). The cavalier uses a bolt in crank sensor and a remote mounted ignition module, so I could mount it where ever I so choose. So I figured why not complicate the issue and add something cool too? I really need to find someone that is good at electronics and building circuits. Hey, that's another problem. Just great.

Good turbo compression numbers.

So I'm still planning on using Eagle 6.25 inch long, small journal Chevy rods part number CRS6250SLW, Pistons I was planning on using are Icon IC723 but after more research I found Icon IC731 which are for a 350 chevy with 6in rods.
I also tracked down the actual specs of a Fel-pro head gasket #1015-1.
It is .039 inch compressed and 4.100 inch bore. I found the specs on Jeg's website. So using the Engine Compression Calculator which takes into account the gasket thickness and bore........

 using the specs:   

bore 4.03

stroke 3.00

head gasket bore 4.10

head gasket thickness .039

combustion chamber 45.6

piston dome/dish cc -18.6

deck clearance 0.11

I got a compression ratio at approximately 7.55:1, and if I did any chamber work on the head that number will only go down. Of course I will have to cc the head and the block with pistons in it to be absolutely sure of my numbers.